Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of be remote podcast. I'm your host Pushpak. And today we have with us bhagyashree pancholy, so she is a founder of all remotely. She's a lawyer and operations expert turned SAAS marketer with eight plus years of experience working remotely. Welcome to the show, bhagyashree. How are you?..........
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Thank you Pushpak. All Well, how are you doing? Yeah, I'm great. That's lovely to hear. And this is such an app time that you have come up with this topic of remote work. The world has got a taste of it. But I think there are a lot of challenges that we all need to learn about and navigate. So I think you've come up with this podcast at the very right time.Yeah. Tell us about all remotely like what exactly it is when you started it. And we know what problem you're solving.So when I started all remotely, it was actually the first remote work consultancy focused for India and for cultural and multi diverse teams. I was working with a couple of corporates and startups who were looking to either set up remote teams, or transition from an office based team to remote teams. But it so happened that last month, we were acquired, and we have now pivoted to my new founder, Dennis and I are now solely focused on previously co located office space teams, helping them transition to remote in a more compliant and productive manner.Okay, so you do like to train them like what exactly you do.So the new version is what I would like to say, all remotely basically has this package, where we have certain elements in the package like a psychometric test, we have legal compliance, we have payroll compliance, we have HR tech, we have ergonomics. So we brought in all these elements together. And this is essentially one site of remote work that many people are not aware of, or they are not talking about because remote work is more than just working from anywhere or working from home. It has to be done in the right way. It has to be done in a more sustainable way. So we help teams become remote in a more productive, efficient, and I would say sustainable way. Yeah, since when you started this. I started all remotely last year. So there's an interesting story behind it. So I have been a remote worker since 2012. And in 2019, I took a sabbatical for my personal reasons. And then I was looking to get back into the workforce. And that's when I started looking for more jobs in India. And I couldn't find many more. So what was interesting to see was that a lot of people didn't even know what remote work was. So they were actually confusing it with work from home. Yeah. And this is why I thought that, you know, I need to leverage my expertise and experience of working remotely with international teams for the last seven years, and now actually want to teach Indians what remote work is all about. And it is much more than working from home.Yeah, like, I was thinking like you said, You started remote working remotely from eight years back, right. So, today also in India, people don't know a lot about remote work. But so like, since that time, how did you start? How did you come up with this idea of working remotely?It was actually by accident. Pushpak, you know, so I, I was a lawyer I was working with with the bank, and my husband who was in the army. So we were getting posted out of Bangalore to Arunachal Pradesh, and we were newly married. So I didn't want to be there in Bangalore, and, you know, let him go all by myself. I wanted to tag along. And I started looking for different options. I actually searched on the internet a lot. And that's when some of the people that I knew in the tech industry told me that there are certain companies that would allow you to work from home and they are generally tech companies or, or SaaS companies. So you need to have some sort of experience in it. And I didn't have any because I was a lawyer. And then I started interning with my cousin brother's company, as a content writer, and I used to draft contracts for them, employment contracts. And slowly you know, with some of his clients, they took me on board and then they taught me about tech and SAAS and marketing and business development. That's how I kind of pivoted in marketing. But I always maintained my legal profession in the sense that I was still trapped in a lot of employment contracts for international teams. That is how I started.So what were your initial days basically, because since I started remotely, I came back to my hometown. The environment is really different. I don't have colleagues with So it's kind of the you know, it's like, we feel lonely, it's kind of depressing. It's like, it's very hard to come up with motivation to work, right? So it was very difficult for me in the early days, but now I'm used to, like, you know, I can do it. But so how was it for you? Like, how did you get this motivation of working remotely,it was exactly the same for me to pushpak, back, you know, because just imagine I was working within an investment bank. So I was very much used to the corporate culture, the office culture, and then all of a sudden, I had no boss. I know, colleagues, I had no office. And also more so because from Bangalore, we moved to the bank, that's a very small hill station in our nature, where there was no social life all together, it was very, very hard, it was very challenging. But I had some really good mentors in my first job, who actually helped me overcome those challenges in terms of anxiety in terms of stress, because it could be very stressful. When you don't know how to demarcate your professional and personal lives, it's quite common, that as an amateur remote worker, you tend to increase or spill your office hours into the work hours, and then you know, you have very less resting time, that actually takes a toll in the long run. So I had amazing people, I had some coaches also in the company who gave me the stipend to reach out to these, you know, lifestyle coaches who taught me how to do that. So yeah, it took around six months, but then I got the hang of it. And ever since then, it has never been a problem.Is there any advice that you'd like to give to someone you know, who's working, who started working remotely?Or Yes, definitely out. One is to have a routine. And I know how cliche, this site sounds, because this is written all over the internet. But as cliche as it is, having a routine is absolutely important. And I have been, I've been guilty of this when I started. So for me, it was like, you know, you just get out, get out of your bed, still in your night suit, maybe you're fresh, maybe you haven't, maybe you've taken a bath, maybe you haven't, and you start walking, that is actually a very wrong thing to do. So just pretend that you know, like you're going to the office, you get up, have your breakfast, talk about your change, and then start working. Why this is important is not only because it would set a routine for yourself and would still continue with your biological clock. But also when you actually take a bath then when you have had breakfast and all you actually can think better. So if something that you are doing in let's say three hours, with the freshmen you may complete it in one. Yeah. So I think one thing is to have a routine and learn when to say no. What happens is like when you are working with global teams, it so happens that you know, somebody is thinking of you even in your off hours in whatever communication tools you use. So it could be a bit overwhelming. Or maybe you know, if you're new on the job, you may want to impress your boss. So you know you keep replying. But that's wrong. learn to say no learn to the market your professional and personalized that is actually the key point here,but what kind of perks do you get as a remote worker. .Now because I am the owner of my own company, I am still drawing a salary. We are reaching the point of profitability now. But in my previous jobs. When I was working as a contractor, I had no perks. But for one company, I worked as an employee, I had the regular perks like I had health, medical allowances, I had childcare allowances, I had pet leaves. I had unlimited vacations, I went on two annual retreats, one to Greece and another one do Iceland. That company. Yeah, it was an annual team retreat to the company paying for all of our resources and traveling expenses and food and boarding. So I had those sparks when I was working as an employee.So basically, you were working and you were traveling at the same time, right?The company used to take us because it was the annual team retreat where everybody in the company would come together and work together for like 15 days, twice and then your which is actually very important to maintain the social balance in the remote team. And also, it's actually important because when you meet a person when you work with them, you understand that person better. So even if you know after 15 days you are working on the other side of the globe, you still know how that person thinks you still know that person on a personal level.So yeah, you know people think remote work is like work from home, but that's not To write a mod, like we are in the middle of a pandemic, that's why remote work is like work from home. But that's not here right now.So yes,remote work is like, basically you can travel anywhere, you can go anywhere. And you can work from anywhere basically, like it's kind of a freedom. Not really. But yeah, kind of what,why peopleactually, you know, the concept of remote work and work from home is so new that even some of the people who have been in this industry, I still got a, you know, learning more about it, there has never been a clear cut definition between the two, but it has been derived over and over from people and their experiences. And what you said has actually come to become the definition that remote work is working from anywhere, it could be your home, it could be a beach, it could be a train, it could be wherever, and work from home is essentially working from home. Again, the distinction I would add to this is, if you're working with international teams, you are working remotely, because there is no office, there is never an office, you would you, you, you know, you may meet your co workers, let's say 15-20 days in India, but that's all about it. But work from home is more or less for teams who were co located and are currently working from home. And those companies also those who may go back to being co located. So like you said, because of the pandemic, everybody's working from home. But if this pandemic were to get over which I so hope that next year it does, those people may have to go back to the office. So for them, it would be work from home. Right? So, you know,We discussed the many advantages of working remotely. But I heard that some people are actually working more because of remote work like their employer started empty, like you are at home only then why don't we just complete your task to do just give it to us more, like, you know, this kind of stuff happening. So what do you think?Yeah, this is actually the reason why these companies or the employees of these companies right now are in a stressful situation. They are suffering from mental disorders, they're suffering from stress, they are suffering from burnout. And it's an you know, they're not being productive. So indirectly, despite the manager pushing them to work more in the day, they're actually losing out on revenue, the projects are delayed, and in some cases, the employees are suing their employers, because this is actually unethical. This is very interesting, you brought up because I read this report sometime around June that you know, India has become the largest country where these employee monitoring and tracking software are being used. And this is, this is a very dangerous thing to use, not only because it would hit your team morale and team productivity very badly, but these software's are illegal to use until you run this. Yes, until unless you have drafted into the employment contracts that you've given to your employees saying that they would be monitored and they would be tracked and these whatever reports are generated from these software's would be used to review their performance one, do these software's are breaching on the fundamental right of privacy of employees. So they're tracking you, they're, you know, they click your screen, they click you. They take screenshots at random hours, you don't know how the data is stored. You don't know how the data is used. You don't know anything, and you read. That's very scary. And, you know, if you read the policies of these software's time tracking, they're not GDPR compliant, they're not HIPAA compliant, and it is mandatory in India. Do you have HIPAA compliance if you have to use any software that relates to employee productivity? Okay. So, so it's, there's a lot. It's not that such things are not only wrong on the moral level, but they're actually wrong on the legal level also.But still, people are doing a jobbecause people don't know how to pushpak. But that's the thing. You know, everything is so new to us, that we don't know what our rights are. We don't know what our responsibilities are. We don't know how to do it. Initially, this pandemic, an entire work from home was that as the biggest experiment of work from home, but this experiment has actually gone more wrong than right in terms of remote work and work from home because this is not remote work. This is a sudden response to a pandemic. Remote work is a more strategic, sustainable approach that the companies take off. Taking into account all sorts of factors, employees, processes, policies, business growth, revenue, everything, nothing was. And they also train their employees to work from home beat using software's beat using, you know how to work productively, or, you know, having the right set of equipment and infrastructure on social levels. Nobody was strained, we just went into a lockdown all of a sudden. So definitely this is how people are trying to control and micromanage their teams. And it is actually going wrong then right? At this point,like suppose Oh, I suppose this company and they are tracking an employee, and the employees don't know, like, this is illegal and all? So can they sue a company if they know this is wrong or something?I definitely recommend them swing. They should listen. Yes, because you don't know how your data is stored. And you know, it's, this is one thing that you have your name leaked out, and your phone number leaked out, we've all received those SMSes, you know, on our phone, but it is altogether different. When your photos leaked out, you know, you can be more soft on all, and especially if you're a woman, you are particularly vulnerable. So all this and none of the companies are telling employees how their data is being used, apart from the fact on productivity and performance that whether you are working or you are not working. And Come to think of it, you know, push back, just imagine like you, you and I both have worked in offices, we worked eight hours, nobody questions as if we take 15 minutes of tea break in an office? Nobody questions if we just turn our head around and start speeding to a clinic for five minutes. Nobody questions if we go out for a walk to a different department for 10 minutes. But when you're using this softwares, even if you have to take a toilet break, you may have to pause it. And those little breaks that you take, which are mandatory because the law says that 20 minutes of screen time should be accompanied with 10 minutes of all off screen time. But if you take 10 1010 minutes every hour, you actually stretch your working hours by two hours. So instead of eight you're working 10 hours because there's a softer one that's striking you.Yeah. So you're talking about the law. So what kind of laws are out there? Like? Could you tell more about these laws? Because like, I have no doubt about it, like a lot of people don't know about these in what what laws, right?Yeah. So I will start with one major law that a lot of remote companies and these remote companies are some of the very famous remote companies that you and I both know what they're doing is misclassifying their employees. And what they do is they take you as an independent contractor, they treat you as an employee, but they don't give you the benefits of an employee. And that's misclassification. That's illegal. That's non complying with laws, not only national laws, but International Labor Organization guidelines as well. And a lot of companies are doing it. People are analog, employees are happy or contractors are happy. Because what is happening is that when you work for a global remote team, the salary is actually the biggest attraction you get. Generally you get paid in dollars, which by sheer conversion is actually a lot of rupees, at least 10% above the market rate, you're in India. So that's the biggest attraction people have to some of these companies and again, offer some hardware or these annual trip retreats, which are like, you know, cherry on the cake people, but they're not understanding the long term effects of it. And it is only now that people have started questioning. So, I had this case of an engineer from Hyderabad, he was working for 10 years with a remote company and he caught the wires and ran into like, you know, 2530 likes because he got admitted into a private hospital. When he sent the bill back to the company that he was working for, for some sort of partial reimbursement. It is only then he comes to know that he is not covered by their medical plans. He is a contractor. He is not an employee. But for 10 years he was treated as an employee. And there's and there's actually guidelines on how you can distinguish if you are an employer, employee or you are a contractor. So let's say if you if you receive performance reviews, by the company that's employing you or the company that you're working for, that's the way I want to use the term I want to use if if they are giving you hardware taking you out for trips, if they're paying for your traveling expenses. If you know if you're getting promoted in that company on the basis of your performance, there is, it's called the ABC test. It was given by the California Supreme Court, but it has now been widely and internationally accepted there, even in India. So, you know, in some of the cases, the courts relied on the ABC test and gave the judgment based on that test. So if, if you need all these three primary criteria, there are, of course, secondary criteria also. But these are the primary ones. And if you just take three, all three of them, you're not a contractor, you are an employee, and the company is bound to bound to pay you the medical benefits, the health benefits, the childcare benefits, whatever other benefits that the country that you are a citizen, or demands the employer to pay to the employee. So this is one thing that most Indians don't know. Yeah, and when a question, and when I ask a lot of people, they really don't care, because they say, you know, for our insurance, we learn so much more that we can use, we can have our own insurance, that's good. But what if tomorrow, you run into legal trouble, or you run into trouble with the income tax department, right? Then what, and you know, how, how problematic it could be. That's one law that I really want people to know, the second one I already told you is about this use of such software as employee monitoring and tracking software. The third and the biggest, another one of the biggest laws that a lot of people are not doing is taxation.There are people across the globe who are just evading taxes by using third party payment platforms, or there are companies who are also hand in glove with those employees slash contractors, because even they don't want to pay taxes. So both of them are actually guilty of evading taxes. And now, because remote work has come into the limelight globally. And now governments are tracking it, there have been crackdowns in there. So, companies have been penalized heavily especially in the US and European Union. Employees slash contractors have been penalized heavily. So don't evade your taxes, if you are earning, be very open about it, pay your taxes and pay your taxes bear the adieu. So if you live in, if you are an Indian living in Greece, and you say, Hey, I'm living in Greece, I'm not supposed to pay, but you are supposed to pay in India. So pay your taxes. So these are the three main laws that I want people to understand. Of course, there are so many more, but these are the three.Amazing, like, I had no idea what this looks like most of the people don't know, I guess.I know, and this is what I've been doing for the last eight years.People should know about it. So what kind of challenges do you know, did you face by working remotely? I think we've talked about it, but yesterday.So number one was basically sort of an isolation, you know, that one that I used to have with my colleagues in the office, you know, that social bond, and you know, what happens is like, in India, what we do is that sometimes our work friends become our best friends, right? That thing was missing for me, usually. And second, it also took me some time to understand the company. So you know, generally remote companies are very decentralized, as opposed to corporate companies where everything is so centralized, and you have no authority or less authority whatsoever. But that, you know, you are on your own, you have complete authority, autonomy, everything's decentralized, you are treated 1000 times better than what you were used to. So this could be a bit overwhelming, you know, and just because it's something new and something good that is happening to you, you may just end up working more. So these two were my biggest challenges and it actually led to some sort of stress. And that's when my boss slash my mentor, she was like, you know, no, no, this is not, this is how you should be treated. It's not that you're doing something special, treating is good. So take a break, just, you know, learn to say no, and take a break. So they pushed me to take 15 days off because I had not taken any day off in three months. So they gave me 15 weeks off just to relax. So yeah, it was one of my biggest challenges.Right. So do you think we can be more productive from home like Why are you more productive while working from home or from office?Definitely from home, because, again, there is a, there are two types of remote companies. One are these flexible, remote companies that I've always worked with. And then there are other remote companies that may ask you to log in at a particular time and log out at a particular time, they're not so flexible. If you work with these flexible companies, they let you set your own schedule. For them, it What matters is, if you've met your metrics, if you've made your KPIs doesn't matter to them, whether you need them in eight hours a day, whether you just work three hours a day, endlessly, and you meet your matrix. So because everything was free for me to know, doing everything was free. Actually, I was given the upper hand to set my own schedule and how I wanted to work and how much I wanted to work. I never thought of cheating the system. So I was not cheating the system. I was working when it was most convenient to me, I was more productive.Yeah, that's the good thing. Like some people are productive in the morning. Some are in the night.Yeah, absolutely. So Exactly. So you know, especially for women, once their children are asleep, or, you know, the food has been fed and all they have the time. So why not use that time to work if you feel likewhat has been your best experience of working remotely without the base experience and another birth experience?The best thing is that, as you know, in the last eight years, I have actually lived with my husband. In almost all corners of the country, I've met some amazing people. In India, my my, the teams that I've worked with have been some of the most progressive teams that have used the latest test technologies. I realized a long time ago that I was actually working in places and with technologies that were at least five years ahead of Indians, I used Salesforce in 20, I think 2015 or something when it was still something very new. So you know, I work with such progressive things, teams and knowing people from different continents, from different cultures, countries, their cultures, has always fascinated me. And when I work with these teams, I get to meet them. So that was like my best part about working remotely. I think the most challenging one was, I can't think of any, you know. So just imagine how much I love remote working. I think the isolation factor, I would say, has been challenging initially, but now I'm pretty used to it. But I think that could be challenging for anybody, even the most experienced of the remote workers can find it challenging.So do you still practice law and like you came from one law and you know, like, became a marketer. So, how do you manage both of these things? Do you still practice law or likeI do, whether I've always practiced law or not. I was never into litigation. But when I started working, like I said, I was drafting contracts. And it so happened that, you know, as I progressed in my remote work journey, I switched from basic drafting on Indian contracts, to something more on the international employment side. And I was one of the very few lawyers who started doing it so early. Even today, most of these lawyers are struggling with international employment laws. And now because of remote work, there has been a new area that has come up where the employment policies and contracts have to be drafted, keeping in mind the strength of working from home or remote work. And I'm getting a lot of traction because I understand law, I understand international law, and I understand remote work so well. So I always practice law, I never gave it up. But how I switched to marketing was because law has always been an industry that you can't work remotely from. So while I had those gigs of drafting contracts, they weren't regular. So I am and you know, I have always found advertisements and marketing to be very fascinating because I love to speak. I mean, yeah. So I started you know, I started as a content writer because I knew writing because I was drafting contracts, so it was easier for me. Then I learned SEO and I learned content marketing. From there, I switched to hardcore SAS b2b marketing. Of course, I did my MBA in between and I had a lot of mentorship. You know, my bosses have been very, very, very supportive. They taught me a lot, but ultimately it comes down to the fact how much do you want to learn, a lot of people don't want to Learn, how much do you want to upskill, I always wanted to do that, I still want to do that. So now at all remotely, we've brought this package all together, which nobody else has on this planet. We're the only ones who are thinking about it. Because my partner and I have seen the challenge of these companies. It's not, the challenge is not revolving around the right kind of remote hiring or onboarding or culture that everybody's talking about. The problem is actually deep down, if you are hiring the right kind of personality to work from home, if they have the right mental state to work from home, if they have the necessary infrastructure, and the conducive home environment to work from home, if they have the right furniture to work from home. So these are actually the deep pain points that we are addressing. So again, I'm learning in all this process. So I think the journey has to be more towards learning in remote work, rather than just stopping and asking for people to pay you more for what you have learned.Exactly. So recently, I came across with one article, I think it was from McKinsey or something. So it shows that if you have a diverse team, you can come up with a better product, or you can be more productive, like growing your revenue. What do you think about that? Do we think diversity matters?Yes. And you know, this is actually actually diversity is actually a very Western concept. Because if you think about an Indian team, you have somebody from Maharashtra you have somebody from Rochester and you have somebody from Bangalore, okay, you have a Hindu, you have a Muslim, you have a lady, you have a CQ, we are diverse by nature. So our teams are diverse, this is not something that Indians per se have to think about. But it's more of a Western concept where you know that that environment or their population is more or less homogeneous. For us it is that we have the saying we've learned right from unity in diversity. So it's not for us. But diversity for a lot of companies that actually think diversity is in terms of gender, diversity, race, or ethnicity. But diversity is actually more than that diversity includes age diversity, it includes cod diversity, and why I stress on eight so much is because see, you and I are young. Okay, we have, we can work hard. But as opposed to our parents in the 60s, they have the experience, even if they come to physical or mental labor, they know how things can get done. They know how things should be done. They know the challenges, they know their solutions. So in which diversity is a very important factor that remote teams should think about, because there are innumerable challenges that young people in the team may not be aware of. But those people who have already worked for so many years, they know it. And when it comes to diversity this is very interesting, because you know, when you read these remote job descriptions, they always say, we are looking for somebody organized, this that fits into our culture fits in. You don't want to, you don't want somebody that fits, or is a mirror image of you. We want somebody who's different from you because your customers are different from you. So if you have somebody on the team that thinks differently than you, then you have more solutions, more opinions, more challenges. And this is how your customers think so indirectly, with that different person with that thought diversity on your team, you're actually kind of replicating more real life situations where people can think in a number of ways, and you have the solutions already. Yeah. So I think Yeah, diverse teams are more productive.Yeah. And we are already diverse. So that's not for Muslim challenge for us.It's not it's not a major challenge for Indian teams. No, not. We print diverse things. Yeah, I think, for us, the challenge would be to have some sort of homogeneous he,like seriously. But we weren't like we are used to having, like people from different backgrounds. And now there are the same people and we are like, yo, like, you want something? Yeah, exactly, exactly. So what is your advice? What advice would you give to a first time remote worker and how to survive remote work and how to accelerate it?Hmm. My advice to the first time remote worker would be to learn not only about your role or your skills or experience, but learn how this remote team functions. That's very important because in a remote team you You are so well weaved into the system or the management or how the processes or the operations side that sometimes you know it, it is actually more important to learn how the team is functioning, then just knowing more about your role or what you're supposed to do. So continuously keep learning how the company's running, what is happening, how the processes are, and upskill yourself. That's, that's again, one thing, because especially in this tech industry, the technology's changing so rapidly, you know, remember when people thought PHP was like God, and then came node, and now JavaScript is God, and now we know you never know what, and now AI and ml? Yeah. So keep upskilling and keep learning how to thrive in a remote environment. I actually shared this. I know, generally, a lot of people don't talk about it. But I want people to understand, a lot of remote companies say that we are an open culture, you can speak to us about anything, don't take it very literally. Keep certain things to yourself, even if it's a negative review. Or if you've experienced some kind of burnout or stress or something, just don't go about talking about it, because they mentioned in the interview that they are a very open team. Even if they are, you don't know how the individual is how the other individual would take it, that could actually turn into a negative factor for you. To keep to yourself an important point. I've fallen prey to it. So now I don't, I just don't share everything. It's good to share what you need to share. But don't open up too much. On your personal front.You're like suppose you have joined a new company, and you haven't even met those people in a year. So you like it's hard to open up also? And you should I think it's not a good idea to open up if you don't know the leader? like there should be? I guess, right?Yeah. So if you want to open up about your professional life, that's okay, I mean, just judge the person really well enough first, but definitely keep your personal problems to yourself. And unless it is absolutely necessary to do them, if you are not feeling well, then you need to take off. But I mean, you can't go to them and say you have boyfriend or girlfriend troubles?Or some like, what are some easiest way? Or like what are the ways to upskill ourselves?You know, one of the thing that I did was, while I was working in the marketing role, I was very intrigued with business development, because you know, all these sales, business development marketing, they work very closely, sometimes they're overlapping. And what I did was, you know, I wanted to learn more about it. So I used to volunteer, if there were opportunities for me, to, to, you know, volunteer or work cut time with another department, I would always volunteer, I actually worked with the tech department, because I soon realized that, you know, I can't be very good at what I do until unless I understand the basics of development and programming. So I didn't know what JavaScript was, I still don't know, I can't record but I know what JavaScript is, I know what full stack back end and front end is almost not even related to what I do. But you need to not so the thing is that you know, always if you want to upskill yourself, first try to learn what your company's doing, rather than just going on Udemy or Coursera or any other educational platforms to upskill understand what the company is doing, because that's very important. And when you upskill yourself, just don't keep upskilling yourself in your own department or role or expertise. Cross upskilling is kind of beneficial because now you know there is no isolated role like marketing is not only marketing, marketing touches upon growth, content, sales, so they let you know a lot of amalgamation of roles now so cross upscaling is very important and feel free to do it. One of the other ways is to have your own pet projects. I learned SEO on my own. I knew about organic on site SEO, but I didn't know technical SEO. So I created a blog for myself. I used to watch YouTube videos. I used to play around with technical SEO on my blog and I learned it. Yeah. So if you want to learn something, make your own project start doing you will learn practice makes a man perfect,though. I suppose I think if you're in a marketing and if you just start writing like I don't know if we just start writing a journal and then our little Facebook or LinkedIn post, I think right thing is very important that if you fell into marketing, because that's how you reach out to people writing or making videos, I guess these are the skills which might be important. And definitely, you know, digital marketing and growth marketing
