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Podcast

Charlo Allizard on being a full stack remote developer, remote work challenges & fitness tips.

by Pushpak Mundre March 18, 2021

Charlo (Charles-Louis) Allizard. He is a fullstack maker and the founder of Remote Mentors as well as a coach for developers and remote workers.

Transcript

Hello, everyone, welcome back to another episode of be remote podcast. I'm your host Pushpak. And today we have with us Mr. charlo. charlo is a full stack maker and founder of remote mentors. He is also coach to developers and remote workers, and he started his Nomad journey like he started working remotely from 2016.Welcome to the show. charlo How are you? Thanks, pushpak. Amazing, thank you. It's good to be here...........

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Yeah, thank you so much.The weather is a bit bit white and cold normally, but so it's like, it's a nice, very nice day. It's morning over there?Yeah, it's late morning, something like elegant.Awesome, awesome. So let's start with your remote work journey, right. So like the initial months of working remotely.I guess my story. I mean, I've been moving and traveling. But I guess my story  with remote work started before that. So I am a developer and designer by trade. I'm like full stack, JavaScript developer. That's my trademark design and copywriting obviously, when I'm like working on full stack projects, and I started these late 2010, early 2011. And at that time, I've been working in Paris, and my office in my in my apartment, actually. So it was like a good way to have a larger apartment by putting your feet in the apartments. And I started working with, with guys on in Berlin, for instance, or in South of France. And we never met. And I at the same time I had clients. I had one big client in the north of France said very barely made met. And so we started like experimenting with some in a way that's home office and remote work at the same time, figuring out a way around, working remotely and collaborating with stuff like slack and Trello. But like really in the early days. And I was very well versed into remote work reading books, like of course, like remote from 37 signals, but also for the name a year without pants were Scott birkins takes a journey at automatic with WordPress for a year. And that's for me, that was really, really cool. And so I had the freedom I had my own freelancing, some kind of like small studio approach to building apps for others. And then this was a good opportunity to go to Morocco, for instance, or Canary Islands, or Berlin. And so mostly I was using my time to take few weeks of Paris to go and surf and work instead of taking holiday. So that's was my first my first approach with moving and working. And then late  2016 in our mid sell 2016 breakup with my ex girlfriend and after like long relationship and so that was a time for me to put things on the side in in France. And this is when I really hit the road or the planes and move to back to Morocco and then Bali. And I had the plan to go to Bali in New Zealand and do a bunch of countries but then I I guess I fell in love with with with Bali with Chengdu, and then 2017 I really decided to spend most of my time in Bali. I've been bouncing here and there. Afterwards, I still have the freedom to move. But that's where really I I was more of a distant remote worker then the home office guy.Right, right. So like, you chose to go to Bali, and you stayed there and started working from over there on the right. Sorry, going to Bali. So yeah, you went to Bali. And you just like just traveling around there. And you started working for more than one right?Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So like do you think like, if you're in a tech like a developer or if you're a designer, so it's easy to work remotely. Because first there there might be some professional rights or like people who can't really work remotely, but if you're in tech  if you're a developer, then it's really easy to work remotely. So what do you think about that?Yeah, um, yeah, I have to agree with this. I mean, I mean, I guess when you are working in, in, in the tech industry, and especially like in design and development, where you have this synchronous relationship to work, you don't really have to be on site, you don't really have to always bounce ideas around or work at the same time. As a team. Sometimes it helps to be together on the same space, sometimes sharing the same time. But you don't have to do this most of the time. And then that probably gives an edge to designers and developers in the tech industry to work remotely. But I don't think it's but and we've seen it like this year, as a lot of the workforce is forced to go remote, or at least home office. That it actually applies. And this is what a lot of people were advocating beforehand that remote work applies to a lot of intellectual kinds of jobs, like the job that doesn't really need necessarily requires your hands or customer facing things like other services, for instance, or cooking or woodwork. Yeah, I think we are exposed as well, like we are exposed to as if it's kind of a caricature, but I would say like as designer and developers you are exposed to pioneering adoption of software's ideas and concepts and changing paradigms. And in the way of work like challenging the way you work, probably more easily than a lot of people are stuck in bigger organizations and different kinds of jobs. And so I think this is, this is what I really, this is what I'm very grateful for in this trade is like being exposed to these ideas, early adopters of slack and then reflectances. like seeing that slack is actually probably brings a lot of bigger challenges, because it's very noisy, and then moving to Toronto, and then from Toronto going to notion, and all these kind of things spreads and is going to be adopted by more and more people, not only developers, but I think that when you expose to building software, you're so exposed to adopting these things. Probably faster, at least for some of the developers and designers and yeah, and it's a little bit caricature. Also, I don't want to be too boxy in these ideas, but I do agree with Yeah.So tell us about your remote mentors, like what exactly the remote mentor is, like what you're trying to do, what problems are you solving with remote mentors?Yeah. What again, is in a certain way, remote workers come from the same motive, I guess, that you have running this podcast. Okay. So yeah. So when I say I've done a bunch of other experiments like this, where I, I blend documentary and filmmaking with web techs, and trying to create a new kind of experience, to connect people, and the idea I had is like, Okay, I'm going to travel, I'm going to leave Paris, I'm gonna move to such and such country. Let's go and interview people about remote work and digital nomads, digital nomadism and digital nomad way of life. So my first motivation was to go and meet people and come with my camera and my mic and be like, Hey, hi. What do you do for a living? What are the pros and cons of working remotely? What advice do you have for other digital nomads? How is life in Bali, how is life in Morocco is life in Poland. And that's my first motive to go and meet these people and spread their experience through an app where you can go and this is what you can do today. If you go to remote mentors that come you get access to the free beta for the moment, and then you will have probably something like 300 videos, and then you get to get some little pieces of experiences from all these people who have been working remotely for years. I mean, it's like startup CEOs, coaches, YouTubers, co working owners and founders as well. So a broad range of people are involved in working remotely in different places. And yeah, this is what I wanted to do like giving access to digital nomads and remote work experience through something that you can use on the internet. Even if you are stuck at home and you are just contemplating the idea of traveling, how do you get started? But what's next? Why? What do you want to pay attention to when you start a remote startup? Right? That's my motivation, I meet people as well. Because when you have a camera and when you have a microphone, you get to connect to so many people. That's very exciting. I think that was my first like very deep inner motivation to have a pretext to go and say hi, I want to talk to you and this is all I got to meet like many amazing people in different places. It was really cool.Awesome. Yeah, this is totally true. Because right now like we are a different country but like with the help of getting Like we're having these zoom calls, you are in another continent time here in India. So yeah, this is amazing.That's really cool. Yeah.So, yeah. So I wanted to ask you about things like, you are the coach to developers also right? And remote workers. So like, when you go, I think, the coaching of remote workers, you're doing this with remote mentors.com. Right. So how do you coach developers, like others developers, Pacific remote developers, or like, you know, head coach, any developer? So how does this work? Yeah.So I guess the coaching approach is a complementarity to remote mentors. But remote mentors are still, this is an application with information. So you, you go online, and you, you get to get knowledge, but it's not the transformation. And what I do is coaching. I try to help people, when I try, I do my best. And we have good results, help people transition, transitioning and having a transformation in their life. And this is what you can do in one on one coaching that you cannot do with an applicant with an app or software. And, so the way I coach developers is the same way I coach, I would coach anyone in a way like, first of all, like listening to, what is it that you want to do? Where are you at? Where do you want to go? And then from there, we tried to give them access to their resources. And so I would say that my main area of coaching as of today is developers, because this is my experience. This is my expertise. I've been building software for 10 years. And so it's just a natural exit coaching. But I think broadly, I like clients from other trades. Like, for instance, I have a consultant in NLP and, and she's a woman. So it's not like specifically only developers, but my main trade and most of my clients are our developers. And I can leverage on my experience of working remotely and building software and moving, like, having jobs like CTO or product management and toying with these ideas really helps in coaching them. Yeah. I think like if I if I, if I can, yeah, I would add some things like most of the time, if, if, if, if we have some developers listening to us today? Are people working with developers? I would say that, usually. I would say most of the time, they come to me because they want to make more money. Okay, that's, that's, that's my main motivation. Hi, I'm making so much per day, I want to make so much per year. So how can we make it work? But that's the first very little motivation? And then I'm going to scratch ccnc? Okay, why do you need this? And how do we do that? Most of the time, for developers, the way I work is not always the case, but is identifying what they can leverage in their internal values, and what they can leverage on regarding perception of their value. Because you have a lot of developers who are always focused on what language should I use, and what technology I should learn and what's next. And in so many times, especially in junior developers, and I would say, post junior developers, not like senior expert with 10 years of experience, but maybe around like three years, and four or five years, people who are very talented knowing to do they not do a lot of stuff, but they are still a bit insecure about the technology. And they would do a little bit of React, a little bit of Angular, a little bit of WordPress, a little bit of Go, a little bit of Python, and, and forget about the basics. And some of them like not so many languages, but they're the way they use geats, for instance, or the way they are handled project management can be improved. So what we're going to do is try to identify what their dream clients are? What is their dream project? And then from then on, try to put more energy into what matters for them, what kind of technology, what kind of skills, what kind of soft skills they need to develop? And at the same time, it's a kind of marketing, personal branding. How do you make it clear that you are a very good front end developer for the hashtag of the education industry, not for everyone, not a little bit of PHP and a little bit of JavaScript and a little bit of back end and front end, becoming very specific. That's a risk because we always want to be very broad, like many languages, many different clients, but sometimes, and that's frightening and counterintuitive, but sometimes when you reduce the scope and you become very precise. This is where sometimes the magic happens. Because when someone comes high, you say like, yeah, that person is a very, very good fit. And I want to work with that person. And that's what, that's what most of my job be revolves aroundthis time. Next up also like, Oh, you know, I'm trying to understand like, suppose there's a developer, who knows, like, who is trying to learn React, web flow, WordPress, all these other languages like Java and stuff. But he just knows the basics of it. And there's, there's another there, there's this other developer, so he knows the basics of all the other stuff, but who is the best at react? So like, doing those, like those developers who house or like, you know, if they're very skilled in a specific language, then that would make them a more valuable developer instead of the developers who are like into most of the languages but are not very highly skilled. So like, which one is better? Basically. Okay.I think it's pretty tricky to answer this question, because it's kind of abstract. And we don't have the context of what I am looking for. But the way I want to react to this is, people don't hire code, they don't buy code, you don't buy code, you don't buy expertise, you buy solutions. And if you need to, I mean, if you need to build a fence, you probably need something like a hammer and some mood. And sometimes you need a junior developer doing react in CSS, basic react, and mainly styling, and just converting the template and you want someone like, you who's going to execute, okay, and at some other time, you want more some more like as a lead Dev, or are kind of like more manager. And it is not a problem that this guy is not the best at using hooks in react or being very skilled with, with, with these kinds of things, because he knows different kinds of languages. And he can swap from backend to front end to serverless to little bit of design and copywriting and strategy, and is very good at doing code reviews. And, reviewing the Git workflow. And that person is that that's not the same set of tools. And for instance, as of today, I'm still coding from time to time, but I would not be the best guy as of today for an execution code. Coding guy, like, if you want me to code for you, eight days, like a story, like five to, I don't think it is very healthy to go to eight hours per day. But let's say you want me to go five hours per day, I would probably not be the best guy to do this, because that's not what I'm cultivating anymore. But someone was cultivating a little bit of everything that might be a good fit for something else. So it I mean, I think but if you take junior developers because I think this is where the entry is, the barrier to entry as being is way higher than it used to be when like 10 years ago, you say hi and build software and build websites. This you got like five clients coming to you to take my money and please build my software. today. It's not true anymore. I'm not sure about every area in the world, but in France at least and I would think I can say in western countries, there is no longer any kind of monopoly because the competition is broader. Eastern Europe, India, accidents are coming very, very hard this big competition in terms of economics. It's difficult to make it work. And then it makes it hard for junior developers to enter the market because we have more and more junior developers coming in the market with short training, like online training online school few, like 36 months of coding. And I think it's good, but it's not sufficient. And, the difficult thing for a junior to enter is to find something that you can come to you can go to a company and say, I can solve this problem for you. And if it means that you're the best at making buttons in CSS, that is probably better than being an entry level react developer that doesn't convert into execution. Because, again, people don't hire react or, or PHP or go, they hire solutions. And yeah,yeah. So you know, I noticed at a remote point at remote mentors who talk a lot about you know, Atomic Learning, right. So could you explain to us what exactly automated learning is like, why do we talk about it a lot?Yeah, I'm going to try to explain this is still fresh in my mind, but the idea of So Atomic Learning comes from this idea that, okay, let's try to put in, I will try to put things into context. If you take remote work, for instance, there is not one place where you go and you say, hi, hello, I'm shallow, and I want to learn remote work, you need to get knowledge from many different sources, many different people. So the idea is, the knowledge that I want to have is scattered, it scattered in the world is scattered into different people. And at the same time, this knowledge is very specific. Because the knowledge you need when you want to be, let's say you are 30 years old, male, a developer, and you want to travel the world and code, the knowledge you need in terms of remote work is not the same as if you are a 35 years old woman with a CEO with a baby. It's not the same as the knowledge that you need. If you are 24 years old, out of school and with a bachelor degree, maybe a master, and you want to be a VA, and or an online business manager. All this knowledge is very specific to people and it's spread. So what I want to do with atomic videos is when you want to learn something today. What do you do? You listen to a podcast, you read the book, you watch YouTube videos, okay, there are other sources. But let's say like for the sake of the example, that's main, the main sources of knowledge, when you do this, when you do this, you need to spend 20 minutes for a podcast or a 45 minute for podcasts, 20 minutes for YouTube videos, and a few hours, like four to eight hours to read a book. And not all of the knowledge instead, the podcasts or YouTube in the book are relevant to your case, right now. What you can do with Atomic Learning and atomic videos is what I'm what I'm doing is I'm I'm splitting the knowledge into what an atom, which is something you cannot reduce that there is nothing smaller than an atom, of course, you can go like lower and lower and lower, but the smallest piece of matter is an atom let's for the sake of this experiment, yeah. And the smallest piece of knowledge here is an atomic piece of knowledge. So you end up with 30 seconds, three minute, four minute, five minutes. And that's your job to connect the dots. And you are, what I want to do is use remote mentors and people need to try to join us in what I'm talking about. But because it's very abstract to talk about it, you need to experiment, but what I want to do is make people the hero of their learning journey. And so you get access to all this knowledge. And then you have an organic experience with learning, you get 30 seconds from that guy here. 55 minutes from this girl. They're in different countries, different trades. Yeah, I still need to work on my definition. So hopefully, it's clear. And again, like, go and try it for yourself to see what I mean. Maybe it might be helpful.Yeah. So you know, like, as you talked about, like, people from different ages have different problems like or like, for them remote work is different for some people. Remote work is different. Right? So, I wanted to ask, like, what kind of challenges do you face when working remotely since you started working remotely? And as you know, as you work with a lot of remote workers, what kind of challenges did they face? So are these challenges the same? Like, do most of the people challenge, like face similar kinds of problems? Or someone has different kind of problems that you might have? Yeah, yeah.Yeah, I'm gonna try to, to to Yeah, I've been facing a broad range of issues. Of course, you have the basic one, why do I find Wi Fi when I'm on like a remote island in Indonesia, and not even Bali? Like smaller island? Things like this, but I saw I just moved the mic. Hopefully He's fine. But I think this is very, I mean, you can have a pragmatic approach like find some internet if you have some goal, make sure you have something done. Let's basic one, one. things. I think the bigger challenges are used to be in the beginning when I was freelancing is like my clients. At the same time being like very while you're in Bali, you're in Morocco, you will, like they're there by such and such place. And if you really, if you really own what you're doing is like Hey, hi. I'm working remotely. And I'm I'm working for you from Bali and you really own it. Then people are probably, like, receive it better. Because if you don't stress about it, your client will stress less about it. Today, it's really mainstream. So it might not be so relevant. But like 4 -5 years ago, it still was sometimes a little bit tricky. They knew they didn't have a choice because they wanted to work with me and our there. And this is the way it works. But sometimes you can have like a little bit of stress. So it's, it's, you don't want to stress with your clients, you hear. So it's talking about what you sell to your clients saying, like you don't sell expertise, you serve solutions. Same time. When you build software, you don't sell software, you sell an experience, you sell an experience of working with you. And that's very important, because when I mean, I'm talking about freelancing and running an agency, I will talk a little bit more about like startup setups and single adjust afterward. But when you run an agency is to do freelancing. You don't sell an app, you don't sell it as a web website, or landing page or whatever you set an experience, because people are going to trust you with their money and be like, Hey, hi. This is my money, adhan money, I want to invest it and I want you to work with me, please help me solve my problem. That's an experience of life. And so you want to remove stress. So if you really own that and be like, Don't worry, I've got everything, everything is working fine, I've got a network, I've got an available for you, I'm not available, but when I'm not you know about it, no surprise, I said it's fine. And if it's not then find other clients, find clients that I want to work with and are in tune with your values. The biggest challenge I had, though, was, I'd been a project manager for a start. And we were in 2024. Fully remote, like maybe a little bit a part of the team was actually in France, normally, because we had some printing stuff, but a fully remote team and I was Product Manager, eight engineers. Plus like the founders team. And the challenge then was to to, to give some reason, because you have to ship software every week or every two week, depending on the Sprint's and, and I was in Indonesia, and one of the developers was in Canada. And we couldn't make it work. But how do you bring some reason into building a project that really goes fast, because we want to build things fast. And our feedback from users and our engineers delivers things quickly, without getting insane. And I think the biggest challenge for me then as a project manager, where you have to deal with iOS app, iPhone, app, web app, and other subjects. And what do you do when you want to go to bed, because it's 10pm. And you want to wake up at 5am or 6am. And when you go to bed at 10am, at 10pm. It's only 3pm in the afternoon and 4pm in the afternoon for your team, and they are on fire. And you are you find yourself even if you you want to have a healthy approach tobalance and everything and be synchronous, you find yourself on slack at 11pm in your bed, three days out of five. And that's not that's not sustainable unless you wake up at 10am. But when you want to wake up at 6am to be an early bird and go surfing and write your journal and everything, then you end up sleeping five hours. And it's stressful to go to bed just after doing prayer management on slack on fire. And that was freaky.I think the challenge which you like said right now, like all which you explained. So basically, if there are remote workers and if someone is in Canada or someone who's in Indonesia, and the timing zones are really different and like that's one of the biggest challenges that people face, right.I don't know if it's the biggest challenge that people face, but I think that's that, that's heavy. That's a heavy challenge. Now at the same time, I think it's an opportunity because you can't have you can't win on both sides. You can't have everything right. So is on. Are you ready to work with this challenge and work on asynchronous project management and make your teamwork across time zones, or do you want to have the comfort of having everyone on two or three hours difference? Maximum, and then just limiting the perspective of letting your people travel or hiring in different countries. That's a trade off. You just that's to trade off. Yeah, maybe? Maybe? I don't know. I don't think there is no one size fits all answer on it. So what I've said is I've said it was not comfortable for me. But at the same time, we had good results of what we've been shipping during these months of collaboration. Okay, for one. And secondly, you can always improve on things. Okay. So you can always decide that there is a time for everything. And it's also my responsibility to actually switch off and be like, Hey, guys, I'm available from that time to the time when I 'm just going to dismiss notifications. And if, if it's too much, then move on and do something else. I mean, it can happen as well, you know, like, do you trade off again? Like, do you want to work with that? Do you want to go to bed at 11pm? After slack? notification? everywhere? All, too you want to be? I mean? Do you want to be done at 5pm? Email? Only two meetings per week? Which is possible? Is it possible with that team? If it's not moving? or dry? I don't know. Like, it's like,yeah, it depends on the situation andadaptation. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think it's a constant adaptation. And just understanding what's at stake, what happens when you work late, and you don't sleep enough? What happens when you are constantly reacting to notification, instead of being in the flow for a few hours in the role of deep work? What happens when you are in the flow of your hours and deep or deep work and you're not available to react to notification and people want your input? I think it's curating the understanding of all these aspects of collaboration in work, and then constantly adjusting, and understanding what's at stake. But because then what I think is that people don't don't know what's at stake. We don't know what's at stake, when you are constantly reacting to notification. We don't know what's at stake when you are spending too much time in meetings, or zoom. We don't know the potential of accomplishments when you set up big blocks of time, without interruption and you get in the flow, and you just do deep work. I think we are exposed to these because we are working on these issues of remote collaboration or development coaching and things like this. But I think developing this understanding of that and just composing because it's, it's never perfect. But when you ignore what's at stake, you can make it work. Andyeah, so like, what was the one thing which you're curious about remote work? And where do you see the future of work?Yeah, that's a tricky question. Because there's so many things going on. And at the same time, I mean, this thing has been changing so much this year. I have to choose one, I have to choose one. And I'm going to, okay. Like today, I'm sorry, as I said, I mean normally, so if you don't know where Normandy is, guys, looking on google map, and Normandy is a country, it's more it's a countryside area of France on the west of France, right in front of England is very, it's full of lush, like it's like very green, a lot of green grass. That's why we have cows and we make good cheese. And that's an amazing, amazing area. So I'm here these days, and this is where I'm from, and I'm 15 minutes away from my sister 15 minutes away from my bro 15 minutes away from my father and my grandparents and my mother are less than one hour away from me. And where am I going with this one going into this is that the ability of people with remote work these days and massive adoption, is to go back to live in the countryside, for instance, in front that's a very that's a subject like people going oh, we're moving away from Paris. I don't have to explain why probably Paris is not the best place to be at the moment. When you have a very high rent and all the restaurants are closed and GMAC closed. Probably you want to be living in a wider house on the countryside when you can take a walk and just breathe fresh air. And, my brother is working on an initiative, a local initiative to help people setting up businesses and and being fulfilled in living in the countryside again. And there is a lot of dynamics that come with being a filmmaker, but there are also other people moving from big cities and living in the countryside or smaller towns these days. And I'm very excited with this because I think it brings a lot of energy. Places where a lot of young people have been living so that's only one thing but I have to choose one. That's something I'm very excited with at the moment.Yeah, like go you know this Yeah, yeah, like cities are becoming a ghost town right now, like, all the people from the cities like they're moving back to their hometown. Like, it's been almost a year like I've been in my hometown. So yeah, like, I've been doing all my work from here only like, this is a small city. I never thought I could work from here, but clear times change things.This is exciting, yeah. And then you can spend quality time with people that matter, like going visit friends and being with family. And that's a big shift. I mean, it's a very early stage, but we're not going to go back to what it used to be. So the impact of this switch in terms of remote work adoption, um, people want to go back to work. So some people are fed up with zoom meetings. Only 30% of the workforce who can work remotely in France actually work remotely? And but I think this creates adoption and tolerance for even if we go back to the office after what, what, I'm not going to go back to the office? I don't think so. But I have never been in an office for 10 years. So that's why, but I think that a lot of people are going to allow their staff, their employees and their team to go and live elsewhere. Something else I'm excited about is I think I mean, this is something to watch. It's a little bit, it's probably less mainstream, but there is this amazing guy who only made a living and Shango was running an initiative these days to create a digital nomad visa for Indonesia. And we are seeing other initiatives to create digital nomad visas. And so this also is the sign that countries want to welcome these animals when we make macros because we are a source of revenue like tourism. It's not as important as tourism while it's non negligible. So I think countries want to attract this kind of workers and we are going to see more and more initiatives like this in the coming future.Yeah. kokanee. Like, I think COVID like, like because of pandemic like people are like there wasn't any Nomad activity happening. Like nomads are basically traveling from one place to another, but like, people were stuck wherever, wherever they are. But I think this after pandemic, I think there's will be a huge push to, you know, like, are they like, walking or like, as a digital nomad, basically, you know, like, in India, I have observed that a lot of people which were staying in cities, they are going to places like gowalk, where there's this beach, and they're just having a beer and working from there. Otherwise, they're going to the Himalayas, in the mountains, and they're working from or they're just smoking up. So this thing's got happening in India. So yeah, this is like, totally gonna happen, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. So what are you willing to do outside of work? What do you do when you're not working? Today?I guess like I said, Yeah, if I have the two things, like I'm trying to stay in shape. So that's not really a hobby, but I think it's important to move around. And especially when you work from home, and you don't have to work so much. I think bringing exercise into your daily routine is important. So actually, last year, for instance, I was in Ukraine. Jim was close in France, but I had the opportunity to work with a personal trainer in Ukraine. So that's something I allow myself to do. That was my main expense, I would say like the Internet of energy. Like, you know, everything was closed. It's but but Jim, so I made this amazing guy named George, and he's been coaching me for six to eight months. And we went from three days a week to five days a week. And that was really a good experience for me to do fitness and, and weightlifting. So we're learning all the basics in the gym and about the body and how to lift weight properly. And that's what's very exciting now that I mean, normally, I'm in the countryside, so I'm working on my kettlebell. So that's I didn't know, you know what kettlebell is, that's, that's a bell shaped weight. And you can it's very, I mean, it's very lightweight gym. So with only one or two weights, you can work your full body. And I'm back into running as well. I just bought a new pair of running shoes so that I can go and do some trades around their beautiful areas. And, and that's Yeah, so that's something I'm trying to do. But it's still says, I consider it work. It's not like I don't do it. I mean, it's good for me, but it's not always funny to move and to do exercise. And I love you know, tar. Yeah. Yeah, playing music and writing songs. I've been producing a little bit of electronics. Before that, and yeah, I'm very excited about this in a lot of cooking. And yeah, bouncing ideas with friends as well. 

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